Unschooling? Neglect? I don't know...

[hmsmith]

What do you do if you know someone that has 5 kids ages 4-13 that has home schooled from the beginning, but doesn't actually teach them anything? I was talking to her today and she said that her three oldest just picked up reading around ages 8-9 on their own. (I don't know how well they actually read). She didn't teach them. She doesn't like teaching. They can't spell at all. She loves MUS because it teaches them for her. "School" consists of her being in the same room with them so she is available for them should they want to learn something during that time, but it's hard for her to even have "school", as she is busy doing her own thing during the day. When they're not having "school" they play and watch tv. She is always telling me how awesome Thomas Jefferson education is, which is what she says she is doing. I haven't researched Thomas Jefferson, nor do I desire to do so from what she's told me of it. Is this unschooling? I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, but I don't get it. What she is doing looks more like neglect. Is this legal? Should I speak up or ignore it? BTW, she's my sister.

[LadyAberlin]

It's been a while since I've read A Thomas Jefferson education. It is more child lead, but I think around 13 it starts to get pretty rigorous in that the child is supposed to be self educating the majority of the day and writing summaries over research that has been done and reading great books and then they meet with the parent once a week to go over all they have studied. I don't think video games and TV come into the picture. They really wouldn't have much time for it. The parent is supposed to be self educating as well and organizing all sorts of clubs and lit discussion groups and debate team type stuff and exposing the children to all sorts of things. In the book they had some classical musician friends come over and give a little concert for their kids and then talk about the instruments. There was a lot going on. When I read it, I really felt that it sounded great in theory, but unless you just have kids that are really driven then it isn't going to work and you also have to have the money to really stock your shelves with all different kinds of books in various subjects so the kids can find different things to study. I don't know your sister, so I don't know what all is going on, but she might want to look into a video school or something if she doesn't want to teach. TJE does tend to be delayed on the start of math and reading because it starts when the kids are interested. When they start reading late, they usually pick it up quickly, My sister was 8 when she started reading and she was reading Sir Thomas More's Utopia by 6th grade for the fun of it.

[TracyR]

Well is she following her state laws? It sounds like she's been doing this for a while. I know there are some homeschoolers that I've met and I don't agree with how they teach their children. But I have to remember those children aren't mine either.

Its amazing what children will learn, even in the harshest of enviroments. I mean look at the Jasey Duggard case. Here this young girl was kidnapped at age 11. Lived under such horrid conditions , bore two daughters who are now something like 12 and 15. In that sime while being hidden away from the rest of the world she managed with a 6th grade education to teach her daughters and according to the media they are right at where a child their age should be. No one knew these two young girls even existed. Given their horrible circumstance they learned anyways. I can't imagine she had a curriculum, and I can't imagine they ever graced the halls of a library or watched television. Yet they still learned which leds to the saying " Is less sometimes more? "

My oldest daughter struggled with reading until the age of 9. One day it clicked for her and now at age 11 in grade 6 reading has finally clicked for her. She is reading at grade level and testing at grade level as well.
I just let her progress at her own pace when it came to reading.

My 6yr old is a 1st grader this year and reads at an early 2nd grade level. My friends daughter is the same age and her mom reports that her daughter is just beginning to decode three letter short vowel words. So who is better? Am I better because I worked through the summer , and bought a program that just seemed to really click with my daughter and she nows read short chapter books. Or the mom who's 6yr old is just decoding three letter words and still sounding each and everyone of them out? Actually neither because children have gifts in different areas, they all develop in different areas and we all have our own method to get from point A to point B.

If she is following your state's law, and she is indeed short changing them then it will be her in the end that will have to answer to her children in the end.

Having sisters of my own you can only suggest, and give advice. In the end its up to them whether they want to take any of it or not. If she really isn't into teaching then maybe the suggestion of cyberschooling might work better ( if its available to you in her state) that way someone else is doing the teaching. Or like another suggested video schooling, programs like Abeka , Bob Jones, have a DVD option. Calvert has online live time virtual classes. I use Memoria Press's Latina Christiana DVD's because it teaches the Latin for me. otherwise I would of never of even thought of having my daughters learn latin. I have never been taught Latin so I wouldn't of had a clue. So if they are using MUS and they are learning just fine from the video then so be it. It maybe not be the way you would utilize the program but if it works for her and her children then it does. I know what may look like homeschooling to one person maynot look like it to the other too.
I know every time my mother in law comes over my daughters get up from the table and begin to play around like they haven't been doing a think all day long. So I can imagine my mother in law thinks we haven't done a thing all day long. But in fact before she came over we did math, and reading and whatever else subject before she even came to our place.
Now if your sister is doing her own thing and not spending anytime with her children at all then I yes, it would be consider neglect. Does she do anything with them? Does she sit and read with them? Does she play any game with them? If they are being left to their own devices all day long and she is off and running around and paying no attention to them whatsoever then, yes, it is neglect. But then this happens to children who attend brick and mortar schools too. They may sit in a building but they aren't learning much and nothing after school either ( I actually know a situation like this with another family I know) because their parents are so caught up in their life they pay no attention to their children.

I can't say for sure if its neglect as I don't know your sister. So its 100% hard to say for sure. Like I said she will have to be the one to answer for it in the end when her children ask why she didn't give them a good education.

[LittleIzumi]

Is she "not teaching them anything," or just teaching what she wants to? If she's using MUS then she's teaching at least math, right? Some kids do respond well to full unschooling (the Sponge learned to read with full unschooling--but we are addicted to library books/reading ) and some kids definitely need structure. If I unschooled the Dramatist it would border on neglect, because she does not learn that way, but her big sister does learn a lot on her own. Whether it's legal depends on the state.

[bbsweetpea]

Do the children like to learn? What do they do all day? When they watch TV is it junk or something they can learn from?

I would need to know more info. I have a friend who unschools this way but her kids still go to campfire group, take soccer, and do a lots of other activities during the week. They also take month long trips to explore the country as a family. Her kids know more information about nature and science than I do. They could probably live off the land if they had too for the rest of their lives. Her oldest is 9 and just started reading. He pretty much picked it up overnight though. Her youngest is 7 and has recently started being interested in math. She picked up addition and subtraction very quickly.

For some people this way of learning works. I am too anal (so is my oldest) for this to work for us but it works very well for my friend. If they are following the laws of the state than it is not illegal. If she is giving them the information they crave as they crave it then I do not believe it is neglect.

As a cool aunt I would buy the kids items they are interested in for holidays and birthdays if you are concerned. That way you know that they are at least getting science experiments or art supplies (whatever their interests are).

[ondreeuh]

Originally Posted by TracyR

I mean look at the Jasey Duggard case. Here this young girl was kidnapped at age 11. Lived under such horrid conditions , bore two daughters who are now something like 12 and 15. In that sime while being hidden away from the rest of the world she managed with a 6th grade education to teach her daughters and according to the media they are right at where a child their age should be. No one knew these two young girls even existed. Given their horrible circumstance they learned anyways. I can't imagine she had a curriculum, and I can't imagine they ever graced the halls of a library or watched television. Yet they still learned which leds to the saying " Is less sometimes more? "

Actually, Jaycee Dugard's daughters thought that she was their sister. The person they called their mother was the perp's wife. When they reported that their mother homeschooled them, I'm sure they meant the Garrido lady. Not that she wasn't a hot mess herself, but she probably had some access to curriculum or at least a library.

[chaik76]

It sounds to me like she is available if the children need her, or to help them get started on something? A lot of unschoolers school like this...it's not neglect. She's letting them figure out their own path of education, and as long as she meets her state's requirements, it's not illegal.

It's not the way I teach, but I know very successful families whose children learn this way and do well.

FWIW, my son didn't pick up reading until age 8...with intensive phonics. So, I wouldn't rest anything on that.

She does math, it sounds like the kids pick projects to do, and it sounds like some of them read for fun...nothing wrong with that.


We "unschool" a few subjects...my son totally follows his own interests in them...and those are the subjects he's ended up very accelerated in.

[RanchGirl]

She's doing TJEd and MUS, the kids are reading by age 8-9 and playing, she's with them all day and letting them do things they're interested in.... sounds pretty ok to me and nothing like neglect. I wouldn't be worried at all.

Unless she is asking you for advice, or you see clear signs of abuse, I would say it's not really your business. You could send over educational games, interesting books, offer fun educational activites, but truly it's not your place to do anything above being their aunt. There is certainly no need to contact some authority or have a confrontation with your sister if that's where you are going with this. (Unless you see some sign of abuse or the children are being physically neglected -- left home alone, not fed, etc.) If I was curious about my sister's homeschooling methods, I would just ask her, especially if we are both homeschooling; it would probably already have been discussed ad nauseum. I wouldn't have a problem asking her specifics but I also wouldn't feel like it was my responsibility to decide whether her methods were up to par.

BTW, Thomas Jefferson method can be quite rigorous, especially at the older ages. Unschooling and/or TJEd may not be your cup of tea, and that's cool... but it's fine for others and many children thrive with these methods.

[JennW in SoCal]

Originally Posted by bbsweetpea

As a cool aunt I would buy the kids items they are interested in for holidays and birthdays if you are concerned. That way you know that they are at least getting science experiments or art supplies (whatever their interests are).

This is a great idea. It fits with the spirit of unschooling, and soothes your conscience at the same time.

Unsolicited advice is a dicey proposition, no matter how close the relationship is. They may be reading excellent literature for all you know -- better to bite your tongue and keep a non-judgmental attitude. You don't want to shut the door in case you are asked for specific education advice in the future.

By the way, I don't "like teaching" either. I guide, discuss, plan and assign work, explain and sort out mistakes, I mentor, model being a scholar, and I nudge, nag and cajole. But I don't like to say I teach because I don't see my kids as passive participants in home schooling. My kids in turn read, ask questions, research, think, summarize, argue their points, follow their passions. And they have lots of free time for their creative interests, which when they were younger was play time. It might look at times like neglect on my part, but it is not, it is just an alternative and quite successful style of educating.

So keep your opinions to yourself. Care about your sister and her kids, listen to what they have to say -- be interested and engaged, but don't judge. Just love them. All kinds of kids with all kinds of rearing turn into wonderful young adults!

[RanchGirl]

Originally Posted by JennW in SoCal

Unsolicited advice is a dicey proposition, no matter how close the relationship is. They may be reading excellent literature for all you know -- better to bite your tongue and keep a non-judgmental attitude. You don't want to shut the door in case you are asked for specific education advice in the future.

<snip>
All kinds of kids with all kinds of rearing turn into wonderful young adults!

great advice!