Learning to write in a language you learned orally...

[Nan in Mass]

Have any of you bilingual people learned to write in a language after you learned the language immersion-style? How did you do it?
-Nan

[Laura Corin]

They learned Mandarin by immersion and are now learning to write. We just found text books that started from the beginning and are working through as fast as is compatible with getting the characters learned.

Best wishes

Laura

[Nan in Mass]

I have tried that several times. Every time we tried, my son began to hate French and we dropped it. I make him study things he hates, but I try not to make him study something he doesn't hate in a way that will make him hate it. For lack of anything else, I am making him try to answer questions in French and history (badly) and then recopy the answer from the book. He doesn't like it but he says he learns by doing this, so he is willing to do it. I think it is a relief after the frustration of trying to answer the questions himself. I am just wondering if it will work. It does seem as though he is improving a little, but it is hard to tell. I'm also wondering if there are other ways of doing this.
-Nan

[cdgni]

If someone learned Spanish, Italian or even Russian, I think it would be very do-able.

On the other hand, the written French is not the spoken French- so many letters dropped or words combined. I'm sure that they are many other langauges where this would apply.

So, while it is possible, I think it would depend on the language.

[CleoQc]

Originally Posted by Nan in Mass

Have any of you bilingual people learned to write in a language after you learned the language immersion-style? How did you do it?
-Nan

I'm not sure what the problem is, here? Every child in the world learns a language by immersion before writing.
My two kids have learned English and starting writing it after a few years. I don't remember anything special about it.

[Nan in Mass]

I know. It seems like it should work ok. I guess I'm worried about the timing. He isn't a 6 or 8 year old learning to write; he is a 15 year old.
-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Right. Cleo - this is another thing I'm worried about. I guess the question is, can he learn to write French without grammar and spelling, just with copywork and a little informal work on the grammar and spelling in context. At least his cursive is improving. As a future engineer in the US, he wouldn't need cursive, but I am being persnickety and making him use cursive for French. Handwritten French looks odd to me if it isn't in cursive, even though I don't use cursive myself. I suppose that is another question - does anyone print French? Or is it all cursive?
-Nan

[CleoQc]

French is printed in many places, but cursive is prevalent. In Quebec, printing is the dominant one.

As for writing French without grammar, I say no. You can't. Words change their spelling depending on what they do in the sentence. While you can get far by using simple substitutions, it will not cover everything.

For example, the verb 'aimer' can be spelled aimer, aimé, aimée, aimez, aimai, and I'm probably forgetting some.

[jld]

Hi, Nan. Fwiw, dd says no, they don't print in France!

Your program for your son seems pretty ambitious. I salute your dedication to your son's learning French through the natural approach . . . but the success of the natural approach may have limits when the student is not truly immersed in the language, i.e., living in a French-speaking country.

As you know, writing is the last skill set to be developed, and if even native speakers need to continue studying grammar and spelling throughout their school years, then it seems foreigners would have to work on all that even more (depending on the level they want to achieve). I'm just not sure there's a gentle way around all the work that just has to be done, if you truly want to be literate in French.

I hear you, though, about wanting a gentle way around it. Ds10 hates doing his French grammar workbook. I won't do it with him anymore. I'm sick of the tears and fits. When his dad is here, he does it with him (oftentimes just one side of a page). And it's just the 8/9 year old book! But his dad and I have told him we are doing French, no ifs, ands, or buts, and if he's 11 still doing the 8/9 year book, then I guess that's how it will have to be.

French is our kids' 2nd language (dh is French, and has always spoken to the kids in French, and the two older kids read at grade level in French), and we really feel their French needs to be as good as it can be. It's their heritage. They need to speak and read and write their father's language, even if their mother tongue is their mother's tongue.

As relaxed a homeschooling mom as I am, there are a few hills I'm willing to die on, and French is one of them. It's not just a school subject for us. Considering the resources we have available, I would consider us irresponsible if we didn't take advantage of them. But I wouldn't necessarily feel that way about another language. (Okay, so I guess I would feel that way about Spanish, too, since I used to be a Spanish teacher, in a past life, that pre-5 kids one I can barely remember).

Dd was wondering if it's your son who wants to learn French, or if it's you who wants him to learn it. All of this is so much easier when the kid wants it. Dd suggested Spanish might be a more worthwhile language to study for a kid in America. She's studying it with me, and finds it a lot easier than French. She's trying to sell ds10 on learning it (I won't teach him unless and until he's mature enough to appreciate it).

Another important point, already addressed by Laura, is the materials you are using. Aren't the Bordas and Chouette books meant for French kids? My kids have some trouble using them, and they're pretty close to being French kids. American kids using them to learn French would no doubt struggle. Are you sure that something like the Scott Foresman series (Dis Moi, Viens Voir, C'est Ca) wouldn't be easier to work from?

I'm sure nothing I've written is news to you. You just seem to be wondering if there's an easier way. Foreign languages do seem to be a slog sometimes. If you find an easier way, ds10 and I are all ears. Until then, we're just going to keep trudging through Chouette . . .

[shehmeth]

Originally Posted by CleoQc

I'm not sure what the problem is, here? Every child in the world learns a language by immersion before writing.
My two kids have learned English and starting writing it after a few years. I don't remember anything special about it.

I second the idea proposed by CleoQc....

My Kids are growing up in a bilingual household: Spanish & English - and I treat both languages the same.... The same way they learned to write in one they do in the other... at the same time...

We learned first the letters, then copywork: short words, sentences and so on... Now we're working with spelling & grammar... I can see how for example skills from one language help her in the other... Spanish is much easier for her to write, because is basically you write it the way you hear it (except for the silent "h")... at the same time pointing out similarities: in both languages proper names start with a capital letter and differences: in English we use capitals for days of the week, but in Spanish we do not... and so on...

Penmanship books are a good resource... we use Handwriting without tears, I buy them in the three available languages: English, Spanish and French (I know French and Italian as well, so I like to expose them to those languages too, through videos, books, etc.)... What I liked is that it follows that progression: letters, short words, short sentences, compound-words, longer sentences, and incorporate grammar into the mix...

In short.. is not any different from the first language...

Kate